I know most would probably choose Exile, hell I probably would too, but consider the fact that Exile was modeled after another album, a classic album; therefore, it was probably easier to write. Consider also that WCSE doesn't contain all of the rough language and feminist protesting of Exile. I don't have a problem with these, but they are almost like oral pornography, tough to turn your ear away from them. Also, WCSE was done a few years into Liz's career. Is it ludicrous to suggest she may have gotten better as an artist in that time?

I've been listening to WCSE recently and have been really impressed. She can write a great lyric without using the f-word all of the time.

Oh, really?

FWIW: I agree with you on the foul language. Although I do think it was used to great effect every time on Exile (especially on a song like "Dance of the Seven Veils"; I think that song contains the most brilliant use of an expletive on that album). I do NOT, however, agree that Liz got better as a songwriter with whitechocolatespaceegg. (For further reading, see the thread: "wcse -- the masterpiece Brad Wood didn't produce")

Most of the songs on Guyville were written before Liz got the idea to make a response to Exile On Mainstreet. Rather than actually writing songs that responded to the Stones' album, she took the songs she already had and tried to match hers up with theirs. Since she had never made an album before, she used EOM more as a tool or guide for sequencing her own songs and making what felt like an album rather than just a collection of songs. That's my take on it anyway...
I personally don't care for much of WCSE, although it has its moments. See the thread JE mentioned. I certainly don't think Liz has gotten better as an artist with time. if anything she has gotten worse. That's my opinion, anyway...

Well, actually, that's exactly the way Liz has always told it. Thanks for responding, though -- I was too tired last night to type out all of that.

I think WCSE is better.

Exile in a Heartbeat.

Exile is like a perfect ball of string. WCSE is some good string, but with some loose ends.

comes down to if you like "deep" music or catchy music.


Exile gets my vote.

i don't think so. i think that whitechocaltespaceegg is just as deep as exile.

WCSE for sure. Not to say Exile isn't awesome, because these two albums are always the ones I suggest to anyone checking out Liz for the first time, but I feel like Exile is her angsty "rebel against anyone who opposses me" album - wcse feels like she's trying to mature and develop her sound more. Just my opinion.

Eh, i dont know if I agree with that. And deep doesn't necessarily mean good.

Apples and oranges. They're my two favorite Phair albums, but I wouldn't WCSE is any worse than Guyville, its simply different. They're both strikingly original, intelligent, creative works of art, and that's enough for me. All this hierarchy in terms of favorite songs and albums and art works and blah blah blah is totally counter-productive to appreciating the music in and of itself, if you ask me (and yes, I know I'm guilty of occasionally voting in polls or making a list).

You said it, white boy.

All this hierarchy in terms of favorite songs and albums and art works and blah blah blah is totally counter-productive to appreciating the music in and of itself, if you ask me



Maybe, but I asked because someone liked the thread about Whipsmart saying it was good to see how much people cared about music. I also like to stir the pot. I also think discussing songs can bring things out that maybe some people didn't know about them and can give them a greater appreciation for them.

So you're saying that's not quite true? Please, elaborate.

I do NOT, however, agree that Liz got better as a songwriter with whitechocolatespaceegg. (For further reading, see the thread: "wcse -- the masterpiece Brad Wood didn't produce")
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Well, I was asking if she's gotten better, not insisting. But, anyway, I guess my point was that after over ten years (five years when WCSE came out) of writing songs, producing albums, touring with other artists, and working with different producers; the contention of many of her old fans seems to be that she's gotten worse. I don't buy it. If anything, she would have gotten more skilled. Maybe you (plural) didn't like the decisions she's made, but recall that she didn't even know how to put together an album at first (or am I wrong about that too?). Also, many people laud her guitar playing on the first few albums because it's so unusual. Maybe it's unusual because no one ever thought of doing that before. Doesn't necessarily make it good. No one thought of giving a paint brush to an elephant until a few years ago. Maybe it's art, but it ain't Picaso.

P.S. I did read the thread you suggested. I think that you made some valid points, but I also think that when we hear or see something for the first time we tend to like that version more than a redone version, even if the redone version is better.

I think Liz was still a great songwriter at the time of WCSE, just a lot of it didn't make the album.

Exile in Guyville... Need you even ask?

Do you think she's still a great songwriter today?

I sure do.

Of course I need ask. What else have I got to do?

And I asked for another reason. I'm tired of fans trashing all of Liz's newer work cause some of it I really like. So I've been trying to highlight the good things about her newer stuff and critically analyze some of her older stuff. But, listening to the Girlysound recordings I realize she isn't as compelling as she once was ( ) for whatever reason. Still, I think WCSE is a great, great album. But I guess Exile is a classic.


P.S. That comment about the elephant paintings was out of line. Sorry, I get carried away sometimes.

I've said it before, WCSE is an insanely underrated masterpiece. A close second place for my favorite Liz record. I think it's better than Whip-Smart.

WCSE has classic written all over it
the fact that it was largely ignored was tragic

look at those songs - not a dud in the bunch

if she still wrote in that vein
and kept that coy come hither vocal
instead of her more nasal "post opera lessons" voice on later lps
we'd be crowning her instead of crying sellout

yeah haha.

actually, they are both good for different reasons.
thats true, though, she can write really good songs without saying "fuck" every other words. LOL.
Exile is so...honest, brutal, even if its not really............true........as in what she was really feeling.
while spaceegg..........each song is so well put togather........and perfect........
haha well thats why we love her!

I would say guyville...But I am in love with Whitechocolatespaceegg...I wish more people could discover this part of Liz...She really is a great artist...I hope she will still be making music after SM

Exile is without a doubt better. I never understood WCSE. It has good songs, but they lack quality. Every song on Exile has quality+.

What is your definition of quality?

WCSE all the way.

Quality is the song in enjoyable. To me, too many of the songs on WCSE do not flow whether it be musically or lyrically. I understand not everyone feels the same way as I do, and I think it is cool that you like WCSE, but I sure I like Exile better because I can relate to the material more.

You hit the nail on the head right there. I can enjoy Exile for what it is, but cannot really relate. I mean not to most of the songs. Meanwhile WCSE came out at the exact time that I needed something like that. And was also the very first cd that made me understand how people can say “Oh, this record saved my life” Not to that degree, but it sure was my friend for awhile back in the day.

Your avatar...


it rocks my world.

Riceman's avatar is awesome, eh:)
Homestar all the way!

I read this following review from Amazon. He gave Liz 2 out of 5 stars to EIG. It's a good review with some good insights to the album in my opinion. since i am a die-hard fan of Liz, i do not quite agree with the rating given from him. but ithink the review is worth to read. what's your opinion on this review? I like to know some of our back fire.

If anyone cares: I'm confused by the praise., July 20, 2003
Reviewer: "emmitt_m" (Grand Island, NE United States) - See all my reviews
In my opinion, this is not a bad work. In fact, during the late 90's I listened to EIG more than most recordings in my collection. Now that I've expanded my musical interests I've found EIG to not be as ground-breaking and crucial as many would lead you to believe.
Concerning musicianship, Liz Phair is not impressive. She can play guitar arguably well enough, but she is not outstanding. Many people could indie-rock her under the table before and after this release. Even if the indie music scene was male-dominated at the time this came out, I really can't see them quivering with fear in response to this. I think she happened to break out with something semi-interesting at a time when a indie pin-up queen was needed. So, let's just say it's spectacular even if it's not by many standards. And as time goes on we will continue to say it is awesome because we can't look like fools for all of our cheering. If anyone says otherwise we'll say they probably just can't "get" it. That may not be the whole truth, but I would not doubt it is part of it.

As far as songwriting, you will not find any stunningly complex progressions here, but some are interesting at the very least. Of course recordings my have simple arrangements and spare ballads, but I think most people then expect compensation: excellent lyrics or an effective voice. While I do think that Liz created a wonderful, quirky ballad ("Nashville") on her sophomore album, on here she usually does nothing for me when things slow down.

When she rocks, her band sounds like the Stones, but unsuprisingly they do not convey the energy or talent that the guys had (although I must admit that "6'1" does make me head bob). I think that is the most disappointing thing for me because I love females who can rock. The hype and praise will disappoint anyone who is expecting anything more than often-subtle indie rock with better-than-average lyrics.

Ah yes! Lyrics! I want to ask many of you if you've heard of Tori Amos, Joni Mitchell, Suzanne Vega, or even Joan Jett? How can so many people be saying that Liz breaks ground by finally proving that a woman can be lyrically and musically just as sleazy or powerful as a man.

For example, Tori Amos released her "debut" in 1992 and wrote about many of the issues Phair is credited with bringing to attention. I guess if you use profanity and your sex appeal to your advantage then you will probably gain attention. Amos could talk dirty as well, but she also maintained a classiness that I must say does not resonate in this music. Of course, some people appreciate a more lo-fi gritty appeal, but please do not say this is especially original. By the way, I agree with the reviewer who said that Liz is not shocking. Maybe if you were 65 in '93 this would've knocked your teal slacks off, but come on.

Women have used bad-girl personas before (Lita Ford) and could probably also pull it off in concert. I am almost certain that Liz Phair would not have been particularly moving in concert at this time. This recording works well enough, but I don't think she has a strong enough personality to be a rock goddess or even an indie rock goddess.

By the way, the whole song-by-song response to EOMS thing is a big wet load of [...] that makes me cringe every time I read it and I'm begging you to stop.

In conclusion, if you enjoy this for what it simply is and strip away the superlatives and ooh's and ahh's then you will find it a good and pleasureable, while not wholly original, recording. Liz Phair, in my opinion, should be praised for writing good lyrics that often expand upon what other females have brought up already. She also kept the 60's-70's Stonesy sound alive in the early 90's (probably along with other bands that I just haven't heard of yet). She of course has her own personality and it would have to show through on this work, but I don't think she made any leaps or bounds with this. She used her sexiness/sleaziness and pottymouth lyrics to turn heads, but it is up to you if that is praiseworthy. I don't find this shocking because her limited vocal ability would not carry her. I am writing this because an album that I liked has been taken so seriously that it ruins it. So get real.

Herein lies a fundamental flaw in this person's criticism. By rebutting the idea that Liz 'proves a woman can be as sleazy of powerful' or whatever, s/he erronously implies that a successful rebuttal of that idea automatically means that EIG is somehow less of an artistic acheivement.



I don't listen to Liz because she's a 'woman in rock' or any of that fucking bullshit. I could care less about 'using profanity and sex appeal to your advantage' or any of that crap. I listen to Liz because she's a unique poet (IMO, lyrically certainly on par with Joni and Suzanne, and more interesting IMHO than Tori) whose stories go far beyond the shallow guise of simple 'Girl/Grrl Power' or whatever. Whoever this person is needs to listen to the album's lyrics again with his/her media-induced 'Women-And-Songs-Bullshit-Coloured-Glasses' off. As for her 'capable, not brilliant' guitar work--well, I find that part of the charm. Sometimes, exotic chords and excessively laboured arrangements can be intimidating, and dilute the power of what one is trying to say.

This person makes the mistake of identifying empty 'faux-feminist' Lilith shit as the main reason Liz Phair's EIG audience was so entranced with it. S/he buys into the media's oversimplified perception of Liz and ultimately faults EIG for stuff that has nothing to do with it.

..........

OH, and to answer the original question....I would pick EIG. But WCSE is by no means a bad record at all. EIG edges out WCSE for me, because imo EIG keeps its' momentum throughout with much more strength. I think some of the arrangements on WCSE could use a little more meat; some of the guitars could be a bit buzzier, there could be more drums on some tracks, etc.

[quote=johnandcate,Feb 19 2006, 03:02 PM]
I read this following review from Amazon. He gave Liz 2 out of 5 stars to EIG. It's a good review with some good insights to the album in my opinion. since i am a die-hard fan of Liz, i do not quite agree with the rating given from him. but ithink the review is worth to read. what's your opinion on this review? I like to know some of our back fire.



Hum hum hum hum. Two out of five? I give it four at least. I know Liz is very self aware, but I doubt she was thinking of the entire history of feminist rock when she did Exile. Her background wasn't even in music, it was in visual arts. She had to ask someone about the Stones' album. I think she was just doing her own thing.

I can agree that, with time, it may not sound as good as it once did. But neither does Elvis Presley or the Beatles. I think she made a splash because she said things that a lot of others had been thinking but hadn't been able to articulate as well. That's what great artists do. But maybe Rolling Stone (which put her on the cover with the caption "A Rock and Roll Star is Born") was wrong. Maybe all the great reviews she got were wrong. Maybe all her fans are wrong too.

Wow, do I ever disagree with all of that. (Surprise, surprise.)

I prefer Tori Amos and I think she isn't hailed often enough as being one of the original 90's females, wheras Liz was.

Despite that, it doesn't mean I can't simply enjoy EIG as an artistic statement and a work of art. And I would def. give EIG more than 2 out of 5 - anyday.

I think someone should make an EIG appreciation thread.

2 out of 5 is bullshit.

That entire thing is bullshit.

Liz's work is phenomenal. Her lyrics are better than any other artist I know of. Her arrangements are brilliant. Everything about her...her imagination, her uniqueness, her creativity...it's unlike anything I've ever witnessed.

Liz is the most compelling artist I know.

And hearing people belittle her incredible work is pretty ridiculous.

wcse any day but why were fantastic songs like bars of the bed, freak of nature, waiting for the bird etc shelved

They didn't fit the theme of the album.

I think it's a great idea.
I always want to find out the trace between EIG and rolling stone's EOMS.
It will be very intersting to do a comparsion between those two.
I don't think we have actually talked about this topic yet.
Liz said when producing EIG, she somehow reached a point that she said forget it, it's too good and i don't have such a song.
A thread talking about these things will be very interesting

Actually, after I found out for the first time that EIG was based on Exile on Main Street, I played the two....6'1, then Rocks Off.. Help Me Mary then Rip This Joint.. I dunno. Maybe I'm missing something, but they just don't seem like the same kind of album, with the exception of the RS being ridiculously mysoginistic, and Liz being against guys.

I agree with that. the song by sone comparison does not really ring any bell on me. but i have a feeling, what Liz was try to do is to look for a tamplate for the transition pattern.